Another mass shooting
Something is seriously screwed up in this country that *one* guy can kill 58 people and wound more than 500 in just a few minutes of shooting. Actually, there are a lot of things screwed up in this country, but our anything goes attitude about guns is one of the worst.
Let's be honest: Gun "nuts" live under sort of a siege mentality, a kind of paranoia about the world and the U.S. government being out to get them.
I think we as a nation need to ask ourselves a serious question. Is this the way we want to live and the future we see for this country? Do we really want to become an armed camp where we have to teach our children both gun safety and marksmanship from the time they can walk? I don't think most Americans do, but the country has let extremists on the issue take charge of the debate. Decisions from the past 25 years or so have brought us to where we are today, and it's past time for us to change the direction of the genocide that is ongoing in this country. But I'm also a realist. Nothing is going to change until the American people demand that it does. And also until the GOP, which is co-dependent with the gun lobby, is out of power.
This goes back to my point that this issue isn't as simple as right or wrong. Yes we should come up with solutions to the problems that's what discussion is for in the first place. But degrading Everyone who disagrees is just intellectually ignorant
Republicans say pray for the victims and their families.
Democrats say something needs to be done.
Republicans say talking about gun laws is politicizing the tragedy.
After a few days, the news moves elsewhere and it's back to business as usual.
And NOTHING ever gets done.
On to the next mass shooting, and repeat.
"...the right or the left everyone mourns and everyone tries to figure out how this happened. " That's such bullshit. EVERYONE knows how this is happening and what is happening. There's a shitload of guns out there, and couple that with ineffective and weak gun laws, a gun lobby running roughshod over legislators, and it's a blood bath. And the worst part is there are many people who are fine with that. Gun manufacturers, legislators, and all the peripheral leaches are making a ton of money; faceless lemmings, being cowed into submission over some unseen threat, are mindlessly buying these arms often to their own detriment.
I initially posted 10/11 on this thread, and if three children a day are killed in the US through gun violence/accidents that is 78 children have needlessly been killed since my post, which is 300% more deaths than the 26 (to date) killed in the Texas massacre yesterday. It's not rocket science to solve this problem, just will and a spine.
And yes, suicide by gun and accidental gun deaths are *very* relevant additions to the conversation. Guns are a more lethal, quicker and more efficient way to commit suicide than most other methods. A gunshot does not give the person shooting themselves the opportunity to reconsider. Many other methods (pills, slashed wrists, etc.) do afford that opportunity. I feel that if guns were not so readily available, the number of successful suicides would be significantly lower. And then there are accidents .... kids finding Dad's gun and shooting themselves or another child. Those deaths are 100 percent preventable. If you want to make an impact, start by charging parents EVERY time there's such an incident. If that doesn't make an impression on careless parents who own guns, nothing will.
Pavement you operate in a fantasy world of absolutes. Here in the real world there is several layers of grey area in between black and white. Truth is that gun laws aren't a magic bullet that's going to solve these problems. In fact the Vegas shooter broke many different laws when he attacked. None of those laws seemed to prevent this. So new laws won't prevent future attacks. Unless the u.s. bans all guns. Then follows up by raiding every single American home in the U.S. and forcibly taking them from the citizens, this still will not solve the problem.
Every time the liberals began talking about gun control what happened. More people went out and bought guns. Now ban them...millions already have guns what do you do? See the problem?
Murder is also illegal, more so than owning an automatic rifle. But it doesn't stop people from killing others does it?
Spend millions of dollars on a new law fine. Now spend billions more on trying to enforce it despite the impossibility of it, and what are you left with? The same problem.
@bearinfw suicide numbers actually shouldn't be apart of the total if we are talking about gun violence. It really falls into a completely different issue. That really really needs to be addressed. But as long as it's lumped together with others it cannot be fixed
@bear, you’re right the NRA and DC shits are keen on prohibiting bump stocks. It does not cut from the gun manufactures’ bottom lines, does absolutely nothing to contain the explosion of firearms, and only provides the sense that something is being done. It’s pathetic
Just for completeness and to answer your other question:
Since 1996 there have been 2 bombings in UK and 2 vehicle/knife attacks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_i … at_Britain
There was nothing between 1996 and 2005.
All of these 4 attacks are terrorist attacks according to current information. Hence, gun restrictions don't cause non-political deranged nuts to find another way to massacre innocent people.
Well, that's the evidence from UK, anyway.
But I'm sure you'll find a way to twist it in your own head.
Your answer is No (even though you say it is yes and no). You think people should be allowed to possess semi-automatic and automatic firearms.
Your idea in the aftermath of the Las Vegas shooting is to DO NOTHING.
It is a complete waste of time to communicate any further with you.
It certainly has been eye-opening for me to hear your arguments and get some insight into how people like you think.
And BTW, homicides are not the top source of gun deaths, though they get the most publicity. There are far more suicides by gun than homicides, and also an alarmingly high number of accidental shooting deaths. Those take the total to well over 30,000 gun deaths per year in the U.S., a number that had actually been higher than auto fatalities until a recent increase in traffic deaths. And suicides *are* affected by the easy availability of guns. Guns are a much more final solution that other suicide methods, which are more likely to give a person the opportunity to change their mind. If one shoots accurately, there is no going back from a gunshot.
If the meme was true, so what? I posted six days ago, since the initial post there’s been 138 child deaths from guns. Since gun control laws do not supposedly work we should give up and let children be murdered? It’s too much to take action and the alternative is placidly watching Bewitched? Talk about selflessness, what a privileged position to be in.
“I do happen to have faith in the current President”. If this comment were an inkblot from a Rorschach test, then first thought that came to mind is Mr. Garrison addressing his South Park pupils saying, “remember there are no stupid questions, just stupid people”. It’s a combative thought and not constructive, and after reading the faith remark, I read an article by Jon Anderson and came across this written about Trump, “Somos mexicanos y tu madre te mentamos”! Brilliant. Again, not constructive, but it’s how I feel. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/mex … e-of-trump
I’d forgo the maudlin that my better days are behind me and let someone else handle it. This president is solidly 100% behind his self and will fuck anyone who stands in his way. At the NRA convention in April this year Trump stated, “Only one candidate in the general election came to speak to you, and that candidate is now the president of the US...You came through for me, and I am going to come through for you.” This is the same guy who said he would not take outside money, and took $30 million from the NRA; Trump said he would not be beholden to special interests. Now he has his nose firmly us the asses of gun manufactures. $30 million buys loyalty. He offers prayers and thoughts to victims of gun violence, but won’t take action to propose legislation to stem gun violence. “…but he has children and a family name to carry on. I don’t.” Holy shit, by that logic my centenarian aunt should be calling shots for the world. Apathetic is not the word I’d use to describe this thinking. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/28/us/politics/do … p-nra.html
@doankyl, you’re right, there are going to be biasses in any type of research covering gun control. Nothing is biased free. You wrote: “Statistically most Americans DON'T want stricter gun laws just better enforcement of laws...”. Surveys too show that a majority Americans—across party lines—support background checks for purchasing firearms. The context and phrasing that the question is asked, and the phrasing of preceding questions will affect how people will respond. In response to Bear’s post about data collecting you state the government should not because it will be biased. An independent organization will not be biased? You have to start somewhere, and the government might be biased, but it has tremendous resources, and the data is there to access. ANY group can cherry pick the data to its own use, but it least it’s there and it’s not absolute—a biased data collection position can be corrected. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/most-america … nd-checks/
@bear, you’re right the NRA and DC shits are keen on prohibiting bump stocks. It does not cut from the gun manufactures’ bottom lines, does absolutely nothing to contain the explosion of firearms, and only provides the sense that something is being done. It’s pathetic
@MachineToole, Amor Vincit Omnia
@TopDad8LA, “...even though it is a very appealing one…” I’m told spectacular, but I’m biased.
I don't think this will be an issue for years to come so right now, currently, I do not believe anyone really needs access to these kinds of weapons. But if it does happen it will be to late to give out weapons again. So do you really think it's just a simple yes or no?
So two mass shootings since 1996........now how many bombings? Mass stabbings? Mass violence in general? I garuntee you will find a correlation between the two. Ban guns and gun violence may decrease then you see drastic spikes in other crimes.
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hil … story.html
Do you think it should be illegal to possess a semi-automatic or automatic firearm?
Simple question.
There have been 2 mass shootings in the UK since 1996.
Yes, you read that correctly, 2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_i … at_Britain
The UK has never had a mass shooting with a semi-automatic weapon.
So don't try to say the UK still has mass shootings that are in any way comparable to USA.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive … ol/541710/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_i … _Australia
And you still don't say that semi-automatic weapons should be banned. You just want to enforce existing laws.
Do you think it should be illegal to possess a semi-automatic or automatic firearm?
Simple question.
We should do more to enforce what we have already. Background checks, bans etc. Making new laws in my opinion is a waste of time because it doesn't address the problem. What you read as "don't do anything" I wrote as "let's do better"
People have stated a lot of opinions on what they believe is good ideas. I presented evidence that would disprove that. That's how a debate usually works. U put two opposing ideas beside each other to determine which is the best or if there is an even better path to take.
I haven't criticized anyone or their ideas. But I have pointed out the problems with their ideas. Banning bump stocks won't work if it's easy to make on your own. In this case his mental health wasn't a factor. He was by all accounts mentally healthy.
Now you say my opinion is ridiculous because I don't agree that taking guns will help. The UK made gun ownership illegal. Yet they still have mass shootings. It's the same with making drugs illegal, people still get their hands on them and use them. So much that it is now an epidemic in our country. We also made alcohol illegal in our country. This was known as the prohibition, people began making their own to profit despite the laws that told them not to. Evidence shows that taking something away doesn't fix the problem. It makes it worse.
You go on to say I'm stupid for suggesting that there are other simple ways of killing people en masse. A bomb is easy to make. In fact you can go to a local library and find out how to use common household chemicals to make them in an afternoon. The same goes with any form of electronic switch or remote to detonate. U can do that easily with a D battery and some wire. Drones also can lift 50+ pounds depending on the quality u get. And are easy to learn to control. Nothing is as simple as squeezing a finger. But most shooters show not only a willingness but the capability to do far worse. It's not easy to get a gun. It hasn't been for a very long time and I never said we should make it easy.
Last the reason I brought up my close friend is because he along with thousands of other Americans if not millions have the skills and knowledge to make guns which would be impossible for the government to do anything about. Out of that group there would be plenty that would use this to their advantage and capitalize on the situation. The exact same way they do drugs now and the exact way they did during prohibition. One man made a working rail gun with a 3D printer. If you don't know what a rail gun is then I'll say it takes far more to make that than it does an automatic rifle.
People are naturally innovative and adaptable. Believing that someone can't do something so simple is woefully ignorant
You have no suggestions for how to reduce shootings. - "The real problem isn't needing new laws in my opinion but better fixes. What those fixes would be I don't know."
You keep saying that the ideas of other people won't work.
If it was left up to you, you'd do nothing and think it is better than at least trying some simple things.
Hence, your idea at the moment is to do nothing. Well, that's just wonderful, isn't it?
Most other people have plenty of suggestions, eg. Ban semi-automatic weapons, ban bump stocks and have stronger restrictions for those who have a history of mental illness.
If you have no ideas, then please stop criticizing the ideas of others until you can come up with better ideas.
And your attitude of "I personally do not believe taking guns away would do anything" is beyond ridiculous.
The following paragraph is disgustingly stupid:
"... gun laws won't prevent mass murders. If a man wanted to he could have easily rigged a car bomb and left it near the crowd. Or fly a drone in from the same hotel room strapped with a bomb or two. If a person wants to kill he will."
You are suggesting it is very easy for the average person to rig a car bomb?
You are suggesting that is as easy as to shoot a gun?
You are suggesting that it as easy to make a bomb and get a drone to carry it as it is to shoot a gun?
Yes, if a person wants to kill he will but we shouldn't make it very simple for him to acquire a very easy-to-operate ready-made killing machine.
Also, just because your wonderful best friend "just finished making his third rifle by hand in his garage" doesn't mean even a tiny percentage of people are able to do that.
And just because "a bump stock can be made with a spring and a bit of wood" doesn't mean they should be for sale in stores - putting ideas in people's heads. Also, most people aren't very good at making little gadgets for themselves.
I don't understand how you can believe me immoral for my posted opinion either. That's a political tactic that does nothing but demean an otherwise useful debate. There is no morally Superior person in this debate because we all I imagine want the same thing and that is to stop the death of Innocents. We just have a different view on the best solution.
Also if you look at the actual numbers as you suggested you will find that the laws are broken in multiple ways. I'm only pointing out that I personally do not believe taking guns away would do anything. I don't even own a gun so I could care less about ownership rights. What I do care about is actual solutions. Forgive me for debating the issue
I also don't understand how I'm being emotional? The logical response would be to review all of the evidence and make a decision. The emotional response would be to jump to a conclusion and make your decision based off of that compulsion.
I don't believe gun laws will have the desired effect. That's my only problem with further regulations. Take drugs for instance. We declared them evil and illegal which then caused them to become a far uglier problem.
Your last comment was rather rude and unnecessary.
One of my homes is in New Mexico. It has the highest DWI and car fatalities ‘in the world.’ Should we ban cars… or just drivers… or get rid of roads completely? Not too many people are killed by ox carts, though I have no proof of this. It is a fair assumption based upon logic.
Chicago, Detroit, or Washington, DC are hotbeds of weapon based murder for sure. Other than DC which is not a part of any state all three mentioned have low death rates in their states and surrounding states. The problem lies in the the city where there is a long history of violence that has yet to be addressed properly. New York City was such a place where the problem is still being addressed because it feels that it is the city’s responsibility to do so. And, no, they did not just lock people up, though there is far too much of that still. It is not at all perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but the statistics show a substantial positive trend as they do in California, Massachusetts, and other highly populated states. If you get caught with an unregistered gun in NYC you can explain the reason for it to the judge after you serve two years in jail. So the real question is just how many people are saved by the possession of guns? Statistically there has to be some, but how many in relation to those killed wrongly?
Yes, there are shootings in other countries even in those with very strict gun laws. However, if you remove from the statistic of the guns or bombs attained illegally and usually by a terrorist- the rate becomes almost non existent or at least pretty darn low. No one there is deluded enough to think that having a gun will help anyone. In such cases having a gun to protect yourself is just about useless and will probably kill more innocent people who just happen to be in your indiscriminate range of fire.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree our points of view. I will stay with the humane and logical trying to find true reasons and real solutions and you can stand on your emotional platform that make you feel good and right... very right. Just please, announce where you are going to be once in a while. I’m sure there are plenty who will try to find themselves elsewhere.
Also please do some research u'll find there are still very big mass shootings in countries that make gun ownership illegal. But not only that they have higher crime rates than we do.
Also what is your excuse for Chicago, Detroit, or Washington DC?? They have the absolute strictest gun laws in America but the highest crime rates and worst gun violence.
Then there is the plastic bag filling up the land fill issue. If we choose to switch from thin disposable plastic to heavier “recyclable” plastic is not the endpoint the same? Does the greater substance in the recyclable when it wears out not equal to the sum of the lesser material flying in the wind? The fact is that the stronger dense woven plastic used in recycled bags breaks down even slower than the tissue thin carriers do. If it is the plastic itself that is the problem then it is the material that should be changed either by using naturally degradable materials like canvas or corn-based manufactured wrapping products.
Now we have a mass shooting in Las Vegas which follows too many other mass shootings. We look at the difficulty as a human condition where people are the problem. Really? Bad drivers who kill are a human problem because the killer and their wheeled projectile are overwhelming used for positive reasons and if ‘an accident’ occurs then it is… an accident, overwhelmingly. The purpose of a gun is to kill. Yes, it could be used for sport in it’s most basic form like an arrow. It is used only for death when anything is added to automate it’s efficiency otherwise. So, we allow automatic firearms to exist under the law of the land and we are the only major nation to allow this and as a legal right.
Healthcare is not a right so far in the US but it is in most of the developed world because it is ‘best for the many.’ The excuse used is that it would destroy our superior medical system. This is definitely not at all a reason. We are 38th in the world benefiting from public health and health research. Other countries outlaw guns and have more accessible healthcare because it is for the common good. We have become a country of killing. No wonder that the religious right follows rules where ‘I am god’ is first and ‘don’t kill’ falls to the seventh position out of ten. Even corporations of which health and education are entwine don’t want to make a profit… They want ‘a killing’ even killing each other if need be to attain way more than just their equitable financial security.
So, we block the natural ebb and flow of others attempts at being mobile by limiting their freedoms and declaring that it is our ‘god given’ right to do so. We choke the planet with our waist in the name of recycling and nature. We possess guns to protect what is ours from others with guns. We want more by preventing others from ‘having’ when there is plenty to share and there’s excess as well which can be humanly gained by helping- not hurting. And we find we are simply cattle in our constrained "hug boxes" by “Well, they are doing it so why shouldn’t I.” That is a rather autistic response characterized by impaired social interaction, impaired verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior. We act like cattle and we treat others like cattle. Our wealthy and spiritually superior country drags it feet when it has to help our suffering citizens in Puerto Rico because they are interpreted as a different race and ‘not of our kind.’
I accept the fact that individually all humans are born selfish. But we as an adult society should be better. We need to think out the problems at hand and seek solutions that are permanent. Instead we choose ‘the fix’ for now and let it be someone else’s problem later when the problem is more demanding. Does all this describe the government and citizenry of US alone? I don’t think so. But it appears that most of the world is at least recognizing that there is a problem and they have begun to take steps to do something positive about it. As for us… We seem to just clog our paths and get in our own way.
As far as more bans and laws you have to realize that it is extremely naive to believe it will stop or even reduce gun violence. My best friend just finished making his third rifle by hand in his garage. A bump stock can be made with a spring and a bit of wood so it would be absolutely impossible to regulate. Also look at some of the cities just in America that have the strictest gun laws and regulations, they also have the worst gun violence to date. Australia and Canada and Europe also has plenty of gun violence despite their gun laws and far more knife crimes vehicle bombings and so on.
The real problem isn't needing new laws in my opinion but better fixes. What those fixes would be I don't know. But gun laws won't prevent mass murders. If a man wanted to he could have easily rigged a car bomb and left it near the crowd. Or fly a drone in from the same hotel room strapped with a bomb or two. If a person wants to kill he will.
https://youtu.be/2WGMssQZl1c
@TopGuy....and? "23 American children are shot every day — 1,458 fatally every year [in the US]" and the larger percentage of these deaths are resulting from legal guns. 58 people killed and over 500 injured with "lawfully owned ... machine guns, or submachine guns"and 23 children killed everyday with legal weapons is still insanely perverse, legal or not.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/guns-stag … 529f1173e7
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
Its also why even pro-gun Democrats have given up on courting the NRA. Regardless of the Democrat's record and positions the NRA will endorse the Gop candidate every time in any sort of national race.
That is the only reason that automatic weapons are available for sale to the public.
Over 90% of Americans want stricter gun laws but our elected politicians don't govern for the people, they govern for their donors.
Get money out of politics - wolf-pac.com